Before I start this thread, I want to make it clear that i'm not claiming that i'm some amazing PVPer by any means. I am, however, a much better PVPer than the majority of people who post comments on the forums and EVE blogs. With that out of the way, here goes.
Since there have been a ton of comments regarding neutral logi lately with all the crimewatch discussion i've noticed a common theme. Most nullsec guys seem to think that we're unskilled and uncreative with our PVP because we use neutral logi which is "uncounterable". While I admit it is a somewhat cheesy tactic just like Falcon alts in lowsec, as I read their comments, I can't help but think that these are some of the most uncreative and inexperienced EVE players I've ever seen in my life. In fact, I would wager that most of the people commenting are just repeating something they heard someone else say.
I said it in a previous blog post, but neutral logi is really really really easy to counter. This, combined with the bears complete lack of shame in abusing game mechanics is why we don't feel bad using it. Hisec groups have known the counter for neutral logi for a really really long time. Heavy neuts and sensor damps, DONE, its over, you don't need anything else. Hell, if you're fighting on a gate even just shooting the logi works great lots of times. Many times we've killed Guardians before their user could jump through the gate or redock, due to a combination of multibox latency and being horrible failfits designed to function without a cap buddy. A lot of hisec logi fits don't have ECCM, for example.
I guess to some people, the thought of doing something other than hitting F1 on a primary and orbiting an anchor is too much for them to handle.
I've had situations where groups have brought 2 Falcons and 10 DPS characters when we've only had 3-4 combat mains and maybe two logi alts on our side. These people are bringing in TWO FUCKING FALCONS to fight 3-4 people, enough Falcons to easily jam out our entire gang. Then, when they welp the entire fleet including the Falcons and we lose nothing, they complain that we're cheap because we used neutral logi and they tried bringing Falcons in, but even those didn't work. Then, they proceed to go post everywhere and tell all their friends about how neutral logistics are overpowered because they had two Falcons and more numbers and still lost.
They don't mention the fact that their Falcons were trying to jam from 50km against Amarr battleships.
They don't mention the fact that they put their neuts on our battleships instead of the logistics ships.
They don't mention the fact that their blob of ECM drones actually had one of our Guardians jammed out the entire time.
No, the only thing they mention is that they died and there was neutral logi on the field, so that must be the reason they lost. Its like the girl who continually gets broken up with because she's a selfish bitch, yet is unable to consciously accept the fact that she might actually be a selfish bitch, and instead concludes that she can't be the one to blame and it must be the guy's fault. Meanwhile, all of her friends console her by affirming that things aren't her fault and she is beautiful and awesome and is so much better than the guy and he is missing out. The EVE version of this is the self-proclaimed amazing FC whose ego can't accept the fact that he welped the fleet because he made poor tactical decisions and confidently tells the gang that they would have won if it wasn't for the terrible neutral RR. Meanwhile, his gang of F1 pressers don't know enough about game mechanics to realize on their own that the FC is a dumbass and due to the confidence in the FC's voice this becomes their vindication.
Most of us dual or triplebox logi. Its really hard to micromanage and fly as effectively as a real logistics pilot under those conditions and against other merc outfits, our alts tend to lose lots of logi ships. When you've got two logi pilots tabbed with a combat main, it doesn't take a lot of DPS to chew through a logistics ship before you can tab over, broadcast reps, and then receive reps from the other logi that are either in seperate windows or tabbed themselves. Recently, when we were shooting TEST a week ago, they complained that we had 5 Guardians, which then became 8, and then eventually phantom 10 Guardians. We had 3 Guardians, that was all. They had a fleet of over 35 Tornados with Cruiser/Destroyer support. We had a fleet with an Abaddon, Armageddon, Absolution, Myrmidon, Proteus, and Typhoon. In the BR on EN24 they complained about how we cheated by losing tons of neut logi and how thats the only reason we won. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't even say that we won that battle, rather they lost it for themselves. Even with their terribad fits and shit fitting skills, they had enough DPS to alpha our neut logi off the field the second it started repping. They could have probably volleyed the Myrmidon, same with the Abso, maybe two shooted the Typhoon/Geddon. Instead they went after the ship with the smallest sig and highest resists, literally the only ship they probably couldn't have alpha'd off the field. To put this in perspective they had more than enough alpha to kill a freighter before CONCORD kills them, which they did 20 or so minutes later and they think the reason they lost was because of our neutral logi. I'm sorry, but if you decide to go all in on the most expensive ship hoping for a juicy killmail, when you aren't able to kill it, you can't really blame anyone but yourself. Likewise, if you're playing poker and you go all-in on a shitty hand that you have no business betting everything on and lose, they think they lost because the flops didn't go their way. In reality, they lost because they made a decision that was poor and risky.
I don't know why people seem that we'll be completely terrible without neutral logi and won't change anything about our flying style. We'll adapt and and everyone else will continue to die. These are probably the same people who said Titans would be useless once they lost the area DD, and then said Titans would be useless yet once again when their DD was changed to only be able to target capital ships before blap Titans.
You wanna know one of the main reasons people use neutral logi in hisec? Its because you can double it as a scout and allows you to fill two roles with one character. Under the new war dec system, the only change will most likely be moving your logi in corp, and then running an additional scouting character. A bit more of a hassle, but unless they do something about the real issue, logistics ships as a force multiplier in small gang situations, nothing will change as much as they think. We have and always will rely on alts heavily. Why? Because you always have yourself to rely on, versus sitting in station spinning your ship waiting for the right pieces to log on.
As annoying as I think neutral RR is, it's not really any different from logi in null. Logi is Logi, they key lies in expecting it. A quick look on the field in hi-sec outside of Hek, for example can show you if there's possible neutral RR waiting to help out the pilot asking for 1v1 and dropping a can. In null sec, kinda the same thing except with dscan, and restricting RR to logi ships instead of say RR Phoons or whatever.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I don't consider much of null to be very good at PvP either, including myself. The ones that are good in my opinion are the guys that live in NPC null usually, or low-sec. The sheer number of fights they get in small-ish gangs just makes them alot better (via experience) than the rest of us running around in 25 man+ gangs out in null.
Those are good points.
DeleteSuprisingly regarding the upcoming neutral RR changes, a lot of us applaud the opportunity for it to un-cheese station games and 1v1s.
One thing regarding logi, that suprises me is how few groups bring their own logistics to fight us. I can literally count on one hand the amount of time we've fought a non-hisec group and they actually brough logi. We generaly don't have blistering DPS and a handful of dedicatedly flown logistics ships would easily be able to shut us down.
I think a common misconception is that being a good PVPer is something that transcends playstyles and the security of the space and that a great PVPer will be amazing anywhere they go. Tactics are different everywhere you go and part of being a good pilot is knowing how to adjust accordingly.
With that being said, I kind of do wish we had more small gang fights in hisec, but in my experience when people form up against us they tend to wait until they have a large enough gang that no sane person would want to engage because thats all they know, mind you we're used to fighting outnumbered and have no problem doing so.
Logistics in hisec are actually quite a bit different from logistics in nullsec, for one reason: they can hide in local. They are very difficult or impossible to find before they light up, and they certainly CAN'T BE SHOT AT before they are already repping. In contrast, nullsec logi mostly has to run with the gang because they're visible anyway. Fleets run with reasonable numbers of them because only so many logi are actually going to help, while the rest may as well just be flying combat ships.
DeleteAs has been most recently discussed by CCP, the upcoming changes to logistics will change this quite a bit. Either logistics must be in the same corporation as the attackers (and therefore readily visible in local), or they must be ready to go suspect and get shot by absolutely anyone who happens to feel like it. This forces a degree cohesion and risk that is currently not present in the 'richest' hisec pvp groups; someone like GOD SQUAD or Moar Tears may have as many as double their gang's numbers in logistics, with no particular commitment to use them in any engagement whether or not they are present.
After the changes, if these groups don't pussy out and 'go to 0.0' because they 'ruined hisec PVP,' they will still be among the strongest groups around, and with some basic adaptability they will be able to field some fierce gangs -- with the caveat that their logistics will probably be visible, both in local and immediately on the field. It's entirely up to them whether they want to adapt to this new environment and move towards a more balanced composition, perhaps a couple neutral scouts and a couple characters that mostly fly combat ships but CAN fly logistics, that regularly work in pairs to actually get stuff done in a gang that doesn't make the enemy throw their hands up in the air in despair.
I think it also needs to be said, for everyone's edification: Coming to hisec to PVP isn't entirely fair. Sure, there are a lot of things that the enemy CAN do to fight, and if they were to bring a sexy combination of ECM and alpha and damps and do everything really well they would indeed be able to face up most of our gangs. But I don't think it is entirely fair or wise to continue on the hard-line approach that it is already completely fair and balanced: it isn't. One of the main home-turf advantages of living in hisec and fighting nullsec alliances is that in nullsec, you can't just invest in a couple alts and throw them about willy nilly in random alt corps with silly names that could never be found in a busy local. You need to have them in an organization that is strictly of blue standings with your parent alliance, holders, and allies or you're gonna get shot out of the sky and constantly reported as an enemy in intel channels unless you never, ever go to nullsec with that character. So they are already forced to be cohesive and visible in local and in combat, even in hisec, and this is a serious disadvantage to them when they come to fight in hisec. Once the PVP-savvy hisec dwellers are forced to do the same, I think they will all be much more willing to bring actual fights to hisec, where they will have a far better idea what they are actually going up against when they enter a system and see five WTs in local.
Maybe this metaphor will ring some bells:
DeleteIn nullsec and lowsec, it's little posses of circus clowns in different colored uniforms, chasing each other about and creaming each other with pies having a jolly time. Sometimes fifty clowns will jump out of a dumpster and maul ten clowns, and that's OK. Sometimes eight hundred clowns will come galloping down the street and absolutely pulverize that poor gang of fifty clowns. But that's all fine, because out there everyone is required to wear a clown nose and all the other clowns already know what's going on.
But in hisec, there are hundreds of normal people who are not clowns at all. You might walk into a big room with two hundred people and not see any other clowns at all. But if you're from nullsec, sometimes there will be a few clowns in the room or in rooms nearby trying to pie you. This sounds like it could be fun as long as you don't accidentally pie a policeman or something.
To the nullsec clown's neverending frustration, it often turns out to be very different. Sometimes -dozens- of those normal people milling about are actively aiding and abetting the clowns that are hunting you. None of your own friends could ever be seen in normal garb or they would be ostracized, so you find yourself outnumbered and bewildered. You are surrounded by civilians whose faces you don't know, and if you ever get into a scrap with the enemy clown you'll probably get pushed about while he pies you and all his plainclothes friends knock your own pies out of your hand and jeer, putting on their own clown noses for fifteen minutes and running away. If you bring enough friends you could probably come up with some tactics that might work sometimes, maybe bring some long sticks to push them away, but it takes a lot of dedication and you never know that they won't just get more plainclothes friends.
It's honestly kind of disheartening from that perspective.
" Its like the girl who continually gets broken up with because she's a selfish bitch, yet is unable to consciously accept the fact that she might actually be a selfish bitch, and instead concludes that she can't be the one to blame and it must be the guy's fault. Meanwhile, all of her friends console her by affirming that things aren't her fault and she is beautiful and awesome and is so much better than the guy and he is missing out."
ReplyDelete^^ I know it's not _that_ related, but I LOL'd hard because I've dated this, and see it on a regular basis.
Then again, it all comes back to that horrible N-word I throw around so much these days. No, not that one. Narcissism.
Sadly it seems to be very, VERY prevalent in EVE. I think the overall "idea" of the game tends to attract that mindset like hyenas to dead gazelle.
lol Thinking about that a second, that's actually a pretty apt comparison. A Hyena follows a true killer around, and profits by the "real" killer's work, which, as you've said twice now and I'm agreeing to twice, is kinda what a lot of nullseccers do. Follow the FC, target who he says, shoot who he says, get on the killmails and look :awesome: with 98% ISK efficiency (yeah, see why I said on your last post that I disagree about "ISK efficiency as a measure of PvP ability is :workingasintended:"??) ... which immediately drops to 50% ISK efficiency if they try going out solo or small-gang a few times in anything more expensive than a T1 BC. ;-)
While I'm thinking about it, you're absolutely right about the "uncreative" part.
ReplyDelete"Doctrinal warfare"? Yeah. You don't even have to figure out your own fits, just look in the corp fitting folder for appropriate "doctrine" fit, buy appropriate hulls and mods, and hit "fit".
Significant variations from the approved "doctrine" fit are VERY severely looked down upon in null. :-/